Consent issues?

[nevernotbroken]

I posted in a different topic:

The most worrying thing I've heard about this project so far is the idea that there are disorders that you can't have consensual romance with at all. Er?? I'm... kind of curious as to what you/the devs feel those are?

Because a huge part of what I found so encouraging about KS is that people with visibly disabled bodies are constantly desexualized and people don't feel like they're capable of consenting to/having sex for some reason... push that envelope. push it as far as it will go. it is a bad envelope.

Decided to make a different topic about it because I'm not naysaying... at all. quite the opposite.

So yeah, devs?

[Waytfm]

I gave a reply to this in the other thread. Let me know your feelings about it.

[nevernotbroken]

About the autism person?

well, I'm also autistic and I can have emotional relationships with other people... you're talking about a personality trait and that personality trait is not wanting to have romantic relationships with other people. then I'd say... yeah, you can't have a romantic relationship with that person.

But not all autistic people are like that... I'm definitely not. If I don't do romance, I do something pretty close. and I'm not convinced I don't. :3

Some do and... yeah, it would be cool to have them represented too but there's no reason there can't be an autistic character, even a non-verbal/otherwise extremely disabled autistic character.

I'm really more interested in what the devs have to say though, because I'm not really here to be The Token Autistic Person and say what autistic people can and can't be like.

[VacuityMechanica]

I'm really more interested in what the devs have to say though, because I'm not really here to be The Token Autistic Person and say what autistic people can and can't be like.

No one needs you to be. We have a team of psychologists, the so-called Medicbros, that are helping us understand the disorders we've gone with, and are making sure that nothing in their paths is, or could be considered, exploitative.

[Hamadyne]

As someone with high-functioning autism, I find that at times, my autism can interfere with certain activities in certain ways. However, I am not one to simply give up because there's something blocking me. I'll go out of my way to make something work, even if that means waiting longer, moving someplace else, etc.

I don't let autism stop me. I find workarounds. To me, it's not, "I can't," it's, "What can I do differently?"

This certainly applies for friendships/romance, too. Yeah, there are probably people out there who wouldn't want anything to do with me. But for the ones that like me for who I am, I work with them as much as I can, having fun all the while.

For me, my autism is a quirk of mine. It can be annoying at times, but I've learned to deal with it.

Love is another obstacle I have to conquer, but I know I can do it.

Romance with autism is a certainly a doable thing.

[nevernotbroken]

Woah, that sounds like a sweet gig. So basically, their jobs are to make sure that the portrayal of disabled people is sensitive and consensual?

Do they do that sort of thing often?

[kosherbacon]

They also make sure disorders and treatments are portrayed as accurately as possible.

[Astartus]

We're taking great effort to make sure that all the characters are capable of full consent and that no exploitation whatsoever will take place. I've seen this point a lot of times already, and seeing how I suffer from a number of disorders myself, I feel the notion that I shouldn't be allowed to experience love or sex kinda... offensive xD I think the main problem is still that most people equal mental disorders with mentally retarded. The thought of putting mentally retarded people in a VN is so out of it that it didn't even occur to us until people started accusing us of doing it. So, basically, people with mental disabilities are being desexualized the same way, even much more so, than the physically disabled people displayed in KS, and I sure hope we'll be able to change that perception for a bit

[imperial.standard]

To shorten the clarification;

No, it's NOT a 'tard porn. We are far better from that. Be prepared to be surprised.

[Genero6]

We're taking great effort to make sure that all the characters are capable of full consent and that no exploitation whatsoever will take place. I've seen this point a lot of times already, and seeing how I suffer from a number of disorders myself, I feel the notion that I shouldn't be allowed to experience love or sex kinda... offensive xD

Hear, hear!
Unfortunately, not only are people with many mental disorders capable of consenting love and/or sex (we're not necessarily picky), but that love and sex are important parts of life. It's just an important part of life that people aren't always going to be vocal about, especially when society makes them feel like love and sex are for normal people, not them. It can already be hard enough to hook up with someone, we don't need people protecting us from all the horrors of relationships. I wonder how many people out there would have a significantly better quality of life if those matters got even a little more attention.

[MDV]

We're taking great effort to make sure that all the characters are capable of full consent and that no exploitation whatsoever will take place. I've seen this point a lot of times already, and seeing how I suffer from a number of disorders myself, I feel the notion that I shouldn't be allowed to experience love or sex kinda... offensive xD

Hear, hear!
Unfortunately, not only are people with many mental disorders capable of consenting love and/or sex (we're not necessarily picky), but that love and sex are important parts of life. It's just an important part of life that people aren't always going to be vocal about, especially when society makes them feel like love and sex are for normal people, not them. It can already be hard enough to hook up with someone, we don't need people protecting us from all the horrors of relationships. I wonder how many people out there would have a significantly better quality of life if those matters got even a little more attention.

I disagree. I actually thinks society emphasises love and sexuality too much. Nowadays we have 16-year old teens worrying their life is a failure and they will be hated and ridiculed by pretty much everyone for not having had any sex yet. Sexuality and lovey-dovey stuff is everywhere in the media, it's almost hypnotising. But it is to be expected, people make huge profits of condoms and all sorts of things couples buy for each other.

[Genero6]

I disagree. I actually thinks society emphasises love and sexuality too much. Nowadays we have 16-year old teens worrying their life is a failure and they will be hated and ridiculed by pretty much everyone for not having had any sex yet. Sexuality and lovey-dovey stuff is everywhere in the media, it's almost hypnotising. But it is to be expected, people make huge profits of condoms and all sorts of things couples buy for each other.

Important parts of life eventually - sex and relationships are more than the crap you see on TV and hear in music. I agree that its presence in modern culture is too much, but those experiences should still be open to everybody in some form. The modern emphasis can work against some people as it makes a lack of sex during those years all the more obvious, they associate it with a society they don't fit in to rather than something everybody should participate in when the time is right.

[imperial.standard]

Important parts of life eventually - sex and relationships are more than the crap you see on TV and hear in music. I agree that its presence in modern culture is too much, but those experiences should still be open to everybody in some form. The modern emphasis can work against some people as it makes a lack of sex during those years all the more obvious, they associate it with a society they don't fit in to rather than something everybody should participate in when the time is right.

Yet this is a different case altogether in people with mental/learning disabilities, because of the differences of the way they/we perceive them. This is what we are going to explore and present in the VN. Medicbros are onboard to fully analyze and advice the story/character/plotlines for inaccuracies.

[Genero6]

How different it is depends on the disability. I do have faith in you guys though, if only because if you can't be serious about the story then the project would probably fall apart before completion anyway. Can't really assume you're doing things wrong until we have more information (the devs were releasing more soon, right?) so don't take any of my points too seriously at this time.

[Gloom]

I think that when people say they have issues with the consent in the game, they refer less to the fact that some "mentally disabled" people aren't interested in sex and more to the fact that some "mentally disabled" people may not be capable of making proper decisions/judgement in the case, so having sex with them would be akin to having sex with a young child, or someone in a coma, or, you know, just rape.

Like, with the nymphomania example from before. When you have sex with a person who is driven to constantly desire sex by what both of you know is a physical, neurological problem, can you really say that there is consent there? It's difficult, I think.

[imperial.standard]

Which is why we explore it. Where do the disability stops and the real personality comes out? And which one is which? This is a difficult and controversial question and the one which we will challenge soon enough.

[Gloom]

And it is a fascinating subject to explore, undoubtedly, but I do think that it is perfectly understandable if more than a few people consider this territory one to dark for them to venture into.

[HeDanny]

I have no reservations what so ever that you guys are going to handle the sex in a proper, respectful manner. No reservations at all.

I do hope, however, that said sex is handled in a way makes it part of the actual storytelling, and not simply "this is the bit where they do it". This is just a personal gripe of mine however. I just don't like filler content that feels like its there simply because its expected. KS suffered from this. Hopefully your product will not suffer from this as well.

[Worthington]

You know, i've just got to say. We'e not even into full production yet, so it's hard to tell what will happen; the entire VN might turn out to be utter crap (it probably won't though). We will try and make the game as tasteful as possible, but it will always be offensive, because at least 1 person will take offense to it. That's fine. That means we're doing it right. Regardless the consent issue was like, the first thing brought up.

[nevernotbroken]

Oh, that wasn't the question -- I understand that you've been making sure that you're conscious of the consent issue. I was more concerned about--

My understanding right now is that you found certain disabilities and ruled them out based on whether there'd be a consent issue with someone with that disability? so what I wanted to know is if there were disabilities that were ruled out entirely because of that? if so which ones, and why?

If you don't want to answer that's fine, but I want to clear up any miscommunications.